nuns and names (a plea for help)

[chainofclovers]

I'm hoping to satisfy a personal curiosity, and the answer will benefit a story I'm writing. How might nuns--or, in this case, religious sisters--handle the issue of names in 1964? I understand (sort of) that after Vatican II, many nuns went back to using their baptismal names rather than their saints names or religious names. However, the story takes place before the closing of the Second Vatican Council.

I've been doing research. I've learned about the difference between solemn and simple vows, between nuns and religious sisters. (The Sisters of Charity take the latter and are the latter.) However, I'm still stumped on the matter of names. I've been researching Catholic nuns in general and the Sisters of Charity in specific, and the Sisters of Charity website has helped me establish a pattern among names of current members but hasn't answered my questions.

My questions are about characters from Doubt, if you hadn't already figured that out:

--in the case of Sister Aloysius Beauvier, is Beauvier likely to be a "secular" last name, such as her husband's last name?

--would her family members (whom I am inventing, and who are Roman Catholic but not particularly religious) refer to her by her baptismal first name, which is certainly not Aloysius?

--would the Sisters of Charity likely speak on the topic of their own names in relation to news from Vatican II in the year 1964?

--is any information given in the film about James or Aloysius' baptismal names and/or family names from before they entered the order? I seem to remember lines of text on the screen at the end of the film indicating that the sister on whom Sister James was based went by a different name later in life. (I realize this last question smacks of laziness on my part--I should just watch the movie again. I've seen it three times and have read the script of the play, but I'm having an odd memory lapse when it comes to these characters' family names. Part of the problem is that several different stories I've read use the same baptismal names for these characters, and I'm having trouble distinguishing canon from fanon. I do plan on watching the film again soon. Real soon, considering I'm starting to find myself in a bit of a time crunch.)

I could give my dad a call, as he'd probably know the answers to the first three questions, if not all four. However, there are two important things I want to avoid when it comes to my relationship with my dad:

1) lying to him
2) telling him that I femslash nuns as a hobby

So, hello internet. Any help (firm facts, speculation, additional questions) is greatly appreciated.

Comments

[thelastgoodname.livejournal.com]

Firstly, and not in regards to the actual question, a note on the timing issue (should this be a timing issue of which I have an interest): given that my Secret Santa story is still not finished, and that I was bid on in a reverse request and won't be done by the deadline, I don't think you need to worry about getting things done by anything resembling an external deadline. I trust you. Self-imposed deadlines are another matter, of course.

As for the other questions:

This may or may not be useful: Choosing a Religious Name. It's contemporary, but very telling. Also, perhaps she could answer your questions (or I'll ask them: I don't write sex stories about nuns, so I wouldn't even be lying).

And according to IMDB, "The movie was dedicated to Sister Margaret McEntee, formally known as Sister James, John Patrick Shanley's first grade teacher."

[chainofclovers.livejournal.com]

As a matter of fact, this *is* a timing issue in which you have an interest! However did you guess? ;-)

Thanks for your understanding. My self-imposed deadline was the 14th since that's the deadline given at help_haiti. However, realistically speaking, the story won't be ready before that. I'm going out of town in a week and a half, and I'd love to have it done then...but we shall see.

I had actually looked over that "Choosing a Religious Name" article, and I did find it helpful. It looks like there haven't been any new comments added to it for a few months, but if I'm unable to get the answers I need elsewhere I just might consider asking Sister Julie! (Or making you ask. Those priorities I mentioned regarding my relationship with my father? The same goes for my relationship with nuns to whom I ask questions on the internet, apparently. However, I have a genuine interest in religious sisters and their spiritual communities that extends far beyond the writing of sex stories, so I wouldn't feel all that guilty doing some primary source research.)

Thanks for the help, and for the IMDB quote! I must've been tired when I looked there, because I completely overlooked that line, and that's exactly what I was searching for. I'm not sure if Margaret is the baptismal name I'm giving my Sister James, but I do like it.

[somniesperus.livejournal.com]

This is the only one I can help with:

--would her family members (whom I am inventing, and who are Roman Catholic but not particularly religious) refer to her by her baptismal first name, which is certainly not Aloysius?

I'd say that would be up to the family, and the dynamic you have created for them all. If they're super-religious than I imagine they'd adhere to whatever principle exists (if such there be). But they're not, so you probably have more room. Are they close to her? Do they like to annoy her? Either of those would be a good reason for them to use her birth name. I'm also assuming (for some reason) that this is taking place in private, instead of in front of the Monsignor or someone.

Hmm, maybe that wasn't so helpful after all.

Also, I feel you on the deadline. I got distracted writing Roslin/Apollo. I'm going to go back and finish the DWP story I started as soon as I'm done with that (and probably before I post it), and then get on to my "Lily" crossover. How did I get myself into this? Stupid Season 1 DVDs.

[chainofclovers.livejournal.com]

Oh no, it was very helpful! The scenes I'm trying to figure out do take place far away from the parish, in the place where the rest of your family lives. I was kind of figuring that they'd refer to Aloysius by her birth name except in certain circumstances, which'll be revealed as I write. That's what makes sense to me, and I'm glad it sounds likely to you. (And yes, the family does like to annoy her very much.)

Roslin/Apollo! I'm so excited to hear that you're actively writing them now. I've enjoyed some of the Roslin/Apollo stories I've read, but I don't feel like there are tons of great authors writing them. I can't find all that many stories written even during the season 1 and 2 heyday. My favorite BSG pairings are Roslin/Apollo and Roslin/Maya, and neither of those get as much play as they deserve.

Eh, deadlines. You'll get everything done eventually (so will I, hopefully), and everybody will love your stories.

Hope you're well!

[chainofclovers.livejournal.com]

And by "your family," I mean "her family." It has been a day of typos, reading words wrong out loud, and mixing my metaphors. The whole damn day.

[pin-drop.livejournal.com]

How curious would your Dad necessarily get about the specifics of what you're writing? I ask because if a friend (/child) of mine told me (s)he was writing something about religious sisters and needed information for accuracy's sake about the conventions of the Church, I doubt I would ask her if there was going to be sex in it, or think to wonder if she was writing fanfiction -- given the subject matter, I'd be much more likely to just assume it was an original and a chaste story we were talking about. Do you usually talk about your writing in detail with him, to the point where he'd want to know absolutely everything/ask for detailed updates later on how it was going/eventually hope to be allowed to read it?

[pin-drop.livejournal.com]

Also, a Random Anecdote: my mother was involved with a religious order once (studied at a Hindu ashram in her late twenties), and when she left it she changed her full name to one which her yogi suggested. Some people who knew her by her old one (mostly her family) still persist in using it, and as far as I can tell they do this because a) they disapprove of her choice to study there in the first place, and/or don't take her seriously when she says she learned a lot there; and/or b) they like to antagonize her. Most people made the switch easily, though.

[chainofclovers.livejournal.com]

That is fascinating (all of it). I like the idea of changing your name after leaving a religious order just as much as changing it once you join. (Name-changing for religious reasons--or any reason, almost--is something I think is awesome.) Thanks for letting me know about your mom's experiences--it's helpful to think about.

[chainofclovers.livejournal.com]

I think he'd be curious but probably wouldn't grill me for specifics. I mainly feel awkward because he isn't Catholic anymore and the conversation might suddenly feel like a Big Thing and I'm much better at Big Things when they happen in person, not over the phone. (It all goes back to the gestures and facial expressions. I can write and I can hang out with people...the phone, not so much fun.)

Also, I recently let him read one of my poems that happened to a) be the most sexual thing I've ever let him read and b) have a line alluding to nuns' clothing. The sexual part and the nun part were not especially related, but still. Of all the months to have a conversation with my dad about nuns in which I try to avoid suggesting femslash or any sort of sexual thing, this would not be the month. :)

[chilly-flame.livejournal.com]

Okay, did some research. This comes from an Italian Brooklyn family raised Catholic (not Irish, which my own version of Aloysius is): a family friend had a sister who went into the convent, and everyone continued to call her by her given first name.

I would also expect that Beauvier is her husband's name, and that she kept it. I'd be surprised to hear of any practicing Catholic of that time revert to a maiden name as a widow, especially one who entered the church.

[chainofclovers.livejournal.com]

Thanks so much, both for the research and your confirmation of my assumption that Beauvier is her husband's name.

not Irish, which my own version of Aloysius is

By this, do you mean the version in your head when you watch the film and read fic, or the version you are writing? At first I read your statement as the former, then started happily contemplating the latter. It's cool either way, of course. :)

Thanks again!

[chilly-flame.livejournal.com]

Whoops. The version in my head. But one never knows! Nun sex has turned out to be quite compelling :D

[maritzia.livejournal.com]

I think I can answer some of your questions here. I haven't seen Doubt (yet), but I do know quite a lot about religious life.

First, if Sr. Aloysius was married prior to entering the convent, and was widowed, she would likely have kept her married surname. At that time period, most women kept their husband's name legally after being widowed, and that would be the name the Church would recognize when she became a Sister.

Second, it is likely her family would continue to call her by her birth name. As Aloysius is a man's name, I would assume that is, indeed, her name in religious life and not her birth name. Most of the Sisters I know were addressed by their birth names by their families. It made it very confusing when you moved to a new convent and had a family member call for "Jo" and you had no idea who that was because you knew here only as "Antoninus" *laughs*.

Third, whether or not Sisters started taking back their birth names in 1964 is hard to say. Some orders began the transition before then end of Vatican II, but those were in the minority. Most took much longer for the transition. Among the Sisters of Charity, I don't recall any that were known to be at the forefront of the progressive movement in religious life, so I would guess that the answer would be no.

Unfortunately, I can't answer your last question as I have not get seen the movie.

Hope this helps.

[chainofclovers.livejournal.com]

This was incredibly helpful, and I appreciate your willingness to answer my questions! I'd been assuming these things to be true (and writing as such), and getting some confirmation from you is fantastic!

I don't think we've been acquainted (hello! I'm CoC!) but I'm truly indebted to you.

[twisted-twister.livejournal.com]

I asked a friend that went to school run by nuns (in Ireland, back then, most schools were - I think) and who is interested in religions in general. As I am not Christian, I hope I didn't mess up with the question or with his answers, but this is what I got:

First, he says, go watch "The Nun's Story" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0053131/ . He believes you might find quite a few answers there, and it will also give you a better understanding of the background.

Secondly, he says that there is a difference between names given before and after Vatican II, and this difference reflects on how the family would see and use the new name. From the limited knowledge that I have and the background he gave me, I came up with a theory, and he thought it was indeed a good explanation to how it might have been: the family would use the name given by the higher authority - in their eyes. He suggests that since names given before Vatican II were given by the authorities within the order (I think), people who were considered of higher stance in the eyes of the family than themselves, those names would have been respected and the nun would have been called by her religious name at home as well. Names given after Vatican II, (where the reform was made), were chosen by the nuns themselves, so, naturally, the family at home, still under the notion of the Primacy of the Family, would have ignored the new name and while within the family would have used the name *they* had given the young woman, because they saw themselves as the higher authority in this case.

My friend also thinks that most likely there were mixed references to the same woman, where the family member would use the religious name outside of the house, even while talking to people who knew the nun before she joined the order. For example, a family friend meets a family member in the street:
-"How is Amy doing?"
-"Sister James is doing very well. She was given a new class and wrote she loved the challenge."

Hope that helps and that I haven't twisted anything this time.... My friend said he would answer any further questions gladly and that the prospect of well written nuns' porn is very appealing ;-)

[chainofclovers.livejournal.com]

Thank you! This was most helpful, not to mention interesting. It was really kind of you to go out of your way to help me get the answers I was looking for. At this point, I don't think I have any further questions, but if I come up with some I'll let you know. Now it's just a matter of getting the thing written.

Please thank your friend for me...and, er, tell him I hope the story satisfies. :)